Tower attacking at beginning is a problem, prevent a real game #696
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anonymous commented The first tower is MUCH stronger then first units. |
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Zarel commented A real game is very possible: Build your own towers, or rush tanks and kill the enemy's trucks before they can finish building their own towers. Sure, the balance isn't perfect, but it's good enough. |
anonymous commented It is not possible to build own towers (fast enough) because if you try to play a nomal game you start to build a factory. So you have spend money for it. You have not enough money to build as many towers as the aggressor, you lose. You can not defend yourself against this attack if you try to play "normal". You can only do the same. Result: No normal game is possible. And more and more player do the same. Because you can only defend yourself against it with same tactic. |
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anonymous commented Watch Videos. You can see that the enemy has absolut no chance. The enemy tryes to build a base. If he is really fast enough to do so, the first tanks (Mashingun,Viper,Wheels) do not have the power to kill the towers.(Video Tower vs Tanks) (In Video "Video_tower2.avi" he tryes to get research building to research the gun and defence towers. But he has absolut no chance to do it) |
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anonymous commented Thank you for accepting this ticket! |
Per commented How about adding a "No rush in X minutes" option in the pre-game dialog, like Supreme Commander has? Where X can be, say, 5, 10 or 15 minutes. This will at least make the rusher build towers just outside the perimeter. So maybe we also need an early game anti-tower weapon, something suitably slow moving that can allow you to reclaim areas of the map walled off early on by mg towers, something similar to the Protoss Reaver. |
anonymous commented I don't see how this is a fault in the game. It's a legit way to win a multiplayer game, think of it like speed chess... What I'm curious of is how will you fix this? Program in a rule that makes you unable to build towers for the first 30 minutes of a game? That will surely be very boring on the small maps. It's like Rage Against the Machine said - 'Know your enemy' :) My opinion - as a long-time WZ fan - is that by implementing hard-coded rules against this you are actually taking away one of the versatilities of the game! |
Zarel commented I have accepted this ticket because I do plan on eventually fixing the balance, but it will not be by making towers less powerful, nor by having a "no rush in first X minutes" rule. Replying to Warzone2100/old-trac-import#696 (comment:3):
You see, this only happens if you don't build the factory fast enough. And that will only happen on a very small map, or if he plays faster than you. The tanks don't have a chance against the towers themselves, but they have a chance against the trucks, if they can attack before the towers finish building. Replying to Warzone2100/old-trac-import#696 (comment:6):
Bad idea. It's just a hack to fix the symptoms of bad balance, not the underlying problem. Replying to Warzone2100/old-trac-import#696 (comment:7):
Towers are meant to be useful to defend yourself in the early-game; that's why they're so much more powerful than tanks. If you don't have towers, the early game becomes "throw MG tanks at your opponent; whoever gets luckiest wins". The towers are meant to add some element of skill before you get enough variety in researched weapons/structures. I think the fix is to make towers slightly later-game than tanks, and give trucks an ability to impede enemy building (except base structures). But replacing the tower rush with a tank rush just isn't the right way to do it. |
Andreas XXL commented Quote: You do not only need the factory to build tanks. You need the research building to research the first gun. And you need the main tower (this one which gives you radar) because without it, you can dot design the tankt. The tower atacker only needs one research building and 2 researchs. "The tanks don't have a chance against the towers themselves, but they have a chance against the trucks, if they can attack before the towers finish building. " Most maps start with 4 trucks. They build together a defence tower in less then 6 seconds. I have a idea: If you can build the first tower only direct next to existing buildings the problem is no more. You can use them to defence your base. But you can not use them to attack. (The new problem is, that this is not part of warzone 2100, because the idea is to build buildings everywhere you want). Perhaps you try to play again someone who use this tactic, to get own experience. You are right, a solution now is not playing on maps with enemy next to you. Onother solution is to start a game with existing base :). |
Andreas XXL commented Quote: This is the best idea! |
Zarel commented Replying to Warzone2100/old-trac-import#696 (comment:9):
It doesn't take that long. I'm looking into requiring the HQ for the tower, too.
No, most maps start with 2 trucks. If you have 4 trucks: 1. You're not playing an official map; blame the mapmaker for making an unbalanced map. 2. You should be able to build an HQ, Factory, and R Facility in that time, and get MG tanks, before your opponent's truck rush gets to you.
With 1 truck? Or 2, if he's really risky and rushes both trucks? You should be able to swarm them, no problem. Insta-win!
I'm a pretty good Warzone player, and I've played plenty of games. I've won plenty of times against people who use this tactic. |
anonymous commented Quote: Perfect idea. And If both is implement, the problem is no more. Without getting new problems. |
Andreas XXL commented I thought about this problem for a long time. I think there is another good and simple solutions. Solution: Make a condition that you need to build a factory a reasearch building and the HQ to build the mashingun towers. I think this solution does not need as much code changes as giving the trucks the ability to impede enemy building. |
Per commented If you can design tanks without a HQ, you can build tanks faster. This seems a better solution to me than requiring HQ for towers. |
Andreas XXL commented Replying to Warzone2100/old-trac-import#696 (comment:14):
Thats equal in the result. |
Andreas XXL commented But if only this is be done, you can build the towers faster then getting tanks because for towers you need only the research building and not the factory. |
anonymous commented I don't think you should change the whole game just because one guy got beaten in a multiplayer game. This game is like chess, and that's the beauty of it, one can risk everything for a quick kill of the other players - but if that first attempt fails then you lose. That's life! Please close this ticket. |
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Per commented Please try 2.2.4 and see if the balancing modifications done in this release are sufficient. If not, raise the discussion again on the forum. Closing ticket. |
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cybersphinx commented Milestone 3.0 deleted |
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| by anonymousSome player do at game starting nothing else then researching the first mashingun tower then driving with construction units direct in enemy base and build the towers.
So, no real game is possible.
Issue migrated from trac:696 at 2022-04-15 18:58:30 -0700
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